Tuesday, June 7, 2011

Male/Female Friendship

Upon being pushed, I will write a post about this, but be warned: I offer nothing black-and-white and no conclusions on this topic.

As Bethany discussed yesterday, I do think that guys and girls can be real friends. I've had certainly a lot of female acquaintances over the years, and more than a few good female friends. I don't think there's much debate as to whether guys can be friends with girls. I think the real topic is the differences between male-female friends and same-sex friends. Am I being too Freudian in my view that the sex drive inevitably taints all things with its nightshade touch? Perhaps, but I think it's a bit hard to escape his influence in modern society, as well as the lingering effects that Western culture's particular brand of Christianity has had on our cultural psyche. We are not sure whether sex has to taint everything, but we can sense that it does in the particular world in which we grew up in. As I've said before, I think that for whatever reason (and I'm not quite sure why this is--it would take great research and perhaps no one has an answer) there has been some sort of fear and loathing towards sex in Western European culture. I'm not sure if it is the same in other cultures, since I'm not that well-versed in them, but there has been an incredibly ambivalent view of sex in our culture for a very long time now. A lot of people link it to (especially medieval) Christianity, but I suspect that is not the cause of it, but merely an indication of what the mindsets were of those in power in those days.

My point in talking about this is that these issues inevitably lie there--perhaps dormant, but always present--when we speak of male-female friendships. In theory, yes they should work. And they do work, like Bethany said. But they work only because we are able to overcome our oftentimes powerful sexual/romantic (how much of a difference is there?) impulses because we think that being friends is more important and/or we know the other person would never reciprocate and we want to save our own pride. But the question is, what are the effects of these underlying urges and feelings? I've always of course believed that male-female friendships do work, because I've always had them and they are fun. But there is usually some underlying element of sexual tension. Either I've had a crush on the girl or she's had a crush on me. Very rarely has this not been the case.

Now who cares if one or the other is attracted to their friend, you say? Well, most of us don't most of the time. But it can lead to trouble if you take it past attraction into the oblivion of love, attachment, and eventually pain. Even if you don't get that far, I think there is always the possibility for sexual jealousy (is there really a worse emotion than this?) and other issues that come along with attachment. Jealousy and attachment is a whole other can of worms that I don't even think I could do justice in blog format. Why is love so possessive? I'm not sure if this is true for all males, but I think that most guys do not want to think about their girlfriends or love interests having sex with other guys either before them or after them. There is nothing quite like the nausea of thinking of your ex fucking another guy, am I right? I think a lot of guys would almost be happy if their girlfriends have never had sex with anyone else before them, because they don't like to think of themselves in sexual comparison to other guys, whereas this is perhaps less of a phenomenon with girls. I don't think many girls want to date inexperienced guys. I wonder why this is different.

I want to believe in the possibility for male-female friendship as much as anyone else. I at times can relate a lot more to females than males, because males in our culture are so obsessed with an outdated idea of emotional denial and stoicism as it relates to masculinity and strength. But I do think that these friendships will forever be "tainted" (to use Bethany's word), although I think that makes them all the more interesting and exciting to be in. A world of peace and magnanimous love would obviously be ideal, but we do not live in one. We live in a world of fleeting love, electric sexual desire, and the unyielding fear of having your heart broken. So we make due of it the best we can. And even if that means dealing with all of the emotional ups and downs that come with opposite-sex friendships, I think it's totally worth it. I, for one, believe they can exist. However, this (as everything is--almost) is a person-by-person thing. Some people I think lack the necessary tools for it to work.

--Edward

13 comments:

  1. You make very good points Edward, but I will add to them...
    I think that some friendships between a man and a woman are pushed because of the female.
    What guy goes out to meet girl FRIENDS? Guys go out to meet girls that will possibly take their pants off.
    Can guys be friends with girls they find very unattractive? yes. But they don't go out to meet them, they might become friends with them through a mutual friend or family, or a friends girlfriend but that's it.
    So many movies put the "friends zone" into play, but everytime it's the guy chasing the girl who is just not interested.
     
    I say that the friendship is pushed by the girl from experience. I've had male friends like me or be sexually attracted to me or what have you.  In fact when I was 16 I used to hang out with just guys, I found out about a year ago that they were all trying to "get with me" (such a terrible term). That made me feel kind of weird since they were like my brothers, but by me ignoring any feelings they had for me and continously treating them as just friends most of them now view me as a sister and would never think about being anything more.
     
    I enjoy hanging out with guys, I think there is a lot less pressure, and while guys constantly tell me "guy friends" are nothing more than guys trying to get in your pants (most of the time) I often choose to ignore it, because I know if I keep the friendship going and act a certain way there can defnitely be true friendship there.
    I consider a number of guys to be my closest friends, and whether or not they are after something different they still treat me like a friend, they're still there for me just like a girl would be.
     
    I think how you act and how long you have known the person has a lot to do with it.  But like I said unless it is your friend's girlfriend, a family member, someone who is sexually unattractive to you or someone who you've known for a long time and always treated like a friend, there more than likely is some sort of thought other than friendship, at least at first.

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  2. I like the point "I think how you act...has a lot to do with it." Indeed. Even if we have some feelings of attraction for the other person (and I think there is some of this from both sexes normally, not just guys--but maybe I'm wrong here), as long as we act like friends, we are friends.

    And I was going to say something about the you-can-be-friends-with-someone-you're-not-attracted-to thing. This is very true. But like you said, most guys don't go looking for unattractive girls to be friends with. That's just the sad nature of reality. And I know it's not fair. I think it works for both genders as well. The sex dynamic is always there. I think life would be a lot simpler and "purer" without it, but that's how it goes, so I roll with it. It makes for a lot of excitement, for sure. But also a lot of pain.

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  3. Okay, so seeing as how I'm now heretofore on the record as being a champion for the success of male/female friendships... I feel I need to divulge a little further on why I think this is true. Mostly, my convictions are made in vain because I have so many male friendships that I don't want to believe could be tainted by repressed or active sexual emotions. Also, I think they work because people have the ability to move past sexual attraction... like a storm that can be weathered. I think this is more prevalent on the female end, seeing as how many girls can live with the notion of being put in the "Friend Zone" as Becca dubbed it. Girls are arguably better at repressing sexual feelings than men. Men, I would ascertain, have a more difficult time coping with their unrequited feelings of attachment and therefore are the cause for the ending of a friendship, more often than not.

    I guess, more than anything, and as self-deprecating as this will undoubtedly sound, I believe my friendships with males work for me personally because I have extremely low self-esteem and don't/could not truly believe they are attracted to me. I've never been friends with someone that turned into a romantic interest-- any sexual experiences I've had started out as sexual. My knowledge is limited, so I'm biased.

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  4. I would say most of my relationships started out in the "friend zone," but they also seemed (at least to me, and I'm pretty sure to the partner) to be more than friendships from the get-go. But that's what I mean about the whole element of sexuality in friendships. That's just what I feel most comfortable doing. To me it's incredibly awkward to think of asking out a girl I don't even know. What if the date was really awkward? It just seems uncomfortable to me.

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  5. Well, considering alcohol was involved many a time... I'd say it was a little less awkward. But all the more depressing.

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  6. You know what, on second thought, I'm changing my opinion. I think the reason it's not entirely possible for men and women to truly be friends is not solely based on sexual attraction alone, but extraneous factors as well. If two single adults of the opposite sex are friends, there is, without fail, speculation on the parts of their same-sexed friends. I know from experience that the doubt/shame inflicted upon me comes primarily from my female friends when I'm in a close friendship with a male, and I think the same can be said for the way male friends react to each other when one is close with a female. Sure, attraction/sexually tinged feelings will inevitably come into play, but the judgments of others certainly doesn't help either. I'm interested to know why this is, and why same-sex competition is so highly prevalent?

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  7. To start at the bottom, same-sex competition seems pretty much primal and something that's gone on from the get go. With heterosexual orientation, we're automatically sided with teams, even when we don't completely relate to them. I think that male-female friendships can work, but this functioning is imperfect, and the extent to which it is imperfect depends on all the things mentioned before, how the friends act, who is attracted to the other and by how much, how much it matters what each one's friends say, which if either of the friends already has a significant other, and ultimately how much the friends want the friendship to work in spite of all that is against them.

    As for my relationships, I've had a mixed bag of what it started as, and in this case I'm considering even not-fully formed relationships, since I have had very few of those. I've started as long time acquaintances then friends then more, I've started as friends that were leading inevitably toward something more (as Edward described), I've had the awkward ask-out-on-a-date-out-of-the-blue lead into being a relationship (and yes, Edward it was awkward and uncomfortable, but worked for a little), and I've even had the one night stand turned into relationship, something I haven't heard of really and did not expect but now am incredibly grateful for.

    I've also managed to have friendships with a number of girls, some of which there was attraction on at least one side, but pretty much through most of them the storm was weathered (as Bethany put it); probably a lot of it has to do with me being the least threatening guy when it comes to that -- see whatever gchat conversation where Bethany and Becca were talking about being really turned off by uber nice guys. Regardless though, I think opposite-sex friendship is as valuable as it can be dangerous in that it opens people's minds up to perspectives that might not be ingrained in their head as well as give someone confidence and enjoyment they might not generally get from members of the same sex.

    And again, I have no idea really why sex is what it is in our society. Better start working on that endless research Eddy.

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  8. Key component here: "probably a lot of it has to do with me being the least threatening guy when it comes to that -- see whatever gchat conversation where Bethany and Becca were talking about being really turned off by uber nice guys."

    Man, this really is the Truman Show...

    Also, I like the concept of "Gender Teams" that you mentioned. It's an interesting conundrum in that, while members of your sex offer a uniquely kindred connection to you, they also have the ability to be far more competitive on a sexual/emotional level than members of the opposite sex. Like I said previously and will reiterate, the majority of the strife I've received throughout my life in regards to my friendships with males has come from my female compatriots-- whether they've done this out of deep-rooted jealousy or a nurturing/mothering/protective instinct will remain to go unbeknownst to me.

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  9. the best part of gchat is that it turns those who usually listen instead of speak into voyeurs since I watch the text go by instead of hear it. also, ed harris tries to shape truman's world whereas I am just entertained by the groupchat. I know Edward is getting a kick out of me ranting about Truman Show. It's a great damn movie. "There I said it"

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  10. if anything, edward is ed harris. gchat is his climate controlled domain. (there I said it, or if you'd rather, someone had to say it)

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  11. As long as it was said, I'm happy.

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  12. http://content7.flixster.com/photo/11/35/48/11354869_gal.jpg

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